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[February 2010 Winner]

February 2010 Winner
Tony U. - 86tincan

[n007]

As much as I don't want to start a flame war here...  there's a big difference between your comparison/argument and the topic at hand.

Your examples are examples of NOT making environmentally friendly decisions (ie - choosing to buy/do something "less" environmentally friendly).  Obviously in this case, to each his own.

Taking off your cat is a decision TO do something environmentally UNfriendly.

The argument only works if you had the option to buy a vehicle new without a cat.

It's like pouring used engine oil down the drain, ignoring "tread lightly" rules, etc.  Different scale, perhaps.

I'm not telling you you're wrong for doing it... it's just not the same thing as NOT buying that sandpaper-like "unbleached" natural toilet paper

Anyway, I found this... check PDF page 56 (page says "20" at the bottom) or search for "catalytic":
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/amltmanualdec2009.pdf

Looks like they're not required in AB.

[P.L.A.N. - A.]

I totally understand your point.  I guess the reality is, I had the choice not to buy a big, gas guzzling 4x4, but I did that.  I could have bought a Prius.  I could walk.  I could find hobbies less damaging but I make the choice and the choice affects the environment.  So, if I choose not to run cats, it's just another choice I made in regards to my impact on the environment. 

That being said, if I can prove that the current cats I have will not hamper my performance in any way, I will leave them in place.  If not, I will cut them out and replace the system with something I can afford.  I totally see you perspective, but the enviro-tards are only gonna really be happy when we sell our trucks and buy whatever they have decided is the "clean choice".

I am all for Tread Lightly!, I am all for doing what we can to improve the general publics view of four wheelers, but I still have the right to do what I need to do, within the confines of the law, to get my junk on the trail and enjoy my hobby.  Maybe I need more money to make everyone happy...don't we all...

[n007]

...Maybe I need more money to make everyone happy...don't we all...

Good call.

Pretty soon enviro-friendly stuff WILL be affordable... check this out:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-mx/
I want one!  Or four...

Thanks for the reasonable conversation, a lot of people (myself included) tend to get out of hand with threads like this

[tink]

It occurs to me that a CAT is a necessary part of any OHV that actually wheels. It is a spark arrester. Not being enviromentally just using common sense, it seems like a responsible part to have on a rig - Just my 2 cents.
Cheers

[Newfiezj]

Really tough call on the cats . I do believe it will fall under federal law as it does in the US .

I did some research on this a month or so ago to find some scary results (via google)
It seems that there's alot of good and bad environmental effects from cat converters . They may keep certain emissions lower (only while idling) but are the major cause of greenhouse gases responsible for the depletion of the ozone .
OP , I know you said show the facts , but , I'm just going off what I read in several places on the net .

From a wheeling POV , if your in a crawling situation , head out the window looking at clearances , you'll miss your cats , it's alot harder on the eyes and lungs .
Also , we get enough crap about the environment as it is , Off-roaders are under a microscope , the environmentalists are just looking for yet another excuse to close the trails , from that I say , get new cats .

From a performance value , a properly working stock cat will loose very little power over the no cat system , and if upgraded to a high flow cat , no difference . You may loose some off the line power with a freer flowing exhaust , this can result in poorer fuel economy as well in the city .

I have 1 jeep with , 1 w/o . The one w/o sounds better , but too loud , I need a cat or even a resonator . Environmentally , I don't know which way to go   

[Bent Bolt]

I'm sure there is a law on the books somewhere saying that it's illegal to remove the cat's BUT it's not enforced at all. If the vehicle were to go through a out of province or out of country inspection, it would probably fail especially if the CEL was on. That said, I have gutted my share of cat's ( no bad pun intended ) . As a rule of thumb, if they are NOT plugged , don't remove them. Modern cat's don't impede performance as any new performance car built today will prove. If they are plugged, remove or replace them as you see fit. As for an environmental standpoint, for the most part a trail truck doesn't see the KM's per year like a daily driver does ( I've put less than 5000 Km on mine last year ) so the so called impact is much , much smaller IMHO .    

[pathybuilder]

if upgraded to a high flow cat , no difference .

I would do the high flow cat.  They are less the $100 and serve the purpose needed.  When I swapped my exhaust the shop that did the work told me I could totally remove cat as my O2 sensor is muffler side of the cat.  If it was engine side I would need a cat for sure.  I put the high flow cat in anyhow.  If you're doing headers, + exhaust and intake your going to see large gains regardless of cat or not.  Not sure about the whole replacing two with one, if it'll still pass in BC.  I'd say one is still better than none.  Save yourself the headache later and put a high flow in now.

[P.L.A.N. - A.]

Thanks for the reasonable conversation, a lot of people (myself included) tend to get out of hand with threads like this

I am doing my best!  Trying hard to see everyones point of view.  I tend to think everyone is stupid except for me...not a great way to approach life.  I hope at least a civil post on this subject can enlighten a few.

Anyway, we'll see.  I don't think my current cats are causing any problem, so I may just start where they end.  I don't really know how much performance gain I could expect out of a 4.0 V6 anyway.  My tranny couldn't handle more than a couple extra horsies as it is...

  The laws that I have read state that the exhaust has to be OEM or equivalent, but there is no requirement to keep the cats.  Technically, even putting 2.5" pipe if you're rig came with 2.25" would be illegal.  I guess it's the spirit of the law, not the letter.

I think for now, I'll leave them.  Mount my new muffler and figure out a tail pipe.  It's also illegal to have the exhaust dump out under the vehicle.  Until I get my bumper built, that will be the case as I don't want to spring for another tail pipe if the current one interfered with the bumper.

Bent Bolt - I totally agree...  a full time trail rig gets way more flak than a big straight piped diesel that some rig pig drives everyday all over the city and northern alberta.  It's kinda BS.  People can ignore all the ignorance running up and down the highway everyday, but drive it off-road and then you got eviro-nazis hanging off your rig like hungry zombies. 

I guess I'll try and do my part.  Nothing better than a good education...but if you learned enough, you might find all this "global warming" to be a little more overstated than necessary.  I'd rather use Al Gore for a traction aid...just stuff him in the rut and put the hammer down.  (now that's a hornets nest I guess we should stay away from...)

[t-man]

but if you learned enough, you might find all this "global warming" to be a little more overstated than necessary.

They call it "climate change" now, because they couldn't prove that the earth was warming significantly faster than it would naturally already.

Truth is, the scientists (that have been silenced) that do not agree with the climate change perspective, they figure the earth is just in its natural cycle, but slightly excellerated from human activity.  Once in a while you will find an article from these guys, but there are way more that jumped on the band wagon of "climate change" cause so many activists are pushing it that their name gets higher and more well known. 

Now that the governments are starting to buy the "climate change" the scientists on the government side get way more grant money to do their research with.  And the guy who thinks it is a natural cycle of the earth gets nothing because he doesn't agree with the government, therefore can't afford the research and thus is silenced.  But this is ONLY MY OPINION.

The way I see it, I do what I can where I can, within my budget.  Mostly cause I don't wanna wreck it for my kids if it really is from us.  Truth is if you took and gave up your gas guzling 4x4 to a crusher and bought a brand new fuel efficient vehicle.  By the time you look at the polution to recycle your old rig (heating, melting, transporting, reforming) and the polution to make your new vehicle (melting, forming, working, building, PLASTICS, transportation).  You would probably leave a smaller foot print by keeping your old rig till it didn't run anymore.  There is so much waste of vehicles that are considered BAD by environmentalists, that the amount that are prematurely being crushed (still safe and reliable for the road) are IMHO creating more greenhouse gases than driving them for an extra 10 years and reducing the amount of new cars built and put on the road.  But this is bad for the economy, so the gov't tells you your car is bad and gives a approx $2000 credit for buying a new "more environmently friendly" car to keep the rich people making money by building and selling the cars.

Well that is my rant.  As for the CAT, if it is not plugged and still working, keep it until it doesn't.  When it is plugged, if your budget can afford new ones, I say put them in and do something for the future generations.  A muffler shop can check it by drilling a small hole before the CAT and checking back pressure.  They then weld up the hole and you can carry on, knowing your CAT is good or bad.

[Flex]

From what I have been reading it looks like alberta may adopt laws similar to BC with regards to exhaust. We may see air care here one day. I would say put the cat in if your are already replacing everything and your done.

[P.L.A.N. - A.]

OK.  The cats will stay for now.  There is nothing wrong with them at this point, so why pull them.  I am thinking a '92 is new enough that they figured out how to make the cats work decently enough. 

As for "climate change"...t-man sounds like he sees pretty much eye to eye with me on that.  Only thing is, I don't have kids yet, I may never, so it's hard for me to think about them...  but I am doing my best.  I just feel like they focus on such insignificant things...  like 2 stroke dirt bikes... I am sure you could add up all the harm they have done and it wouldn't equal to squat on a grand scale...but never the less, they are pretty much extinct.  I know Air-care is coming to Alberta eventually, so I might as well prepare now...